Can Storj can lower costs and increase usage?

I’m wondering if the real pb with not charging objects would be that you could theoretically store data in 0 byte files, just by putting data in file names (encoded in base64 for instance).
That would be incredibly inefficient performance wise probably, but it would be free…
Hence the fee per object.

That’s my 2cts anyway :slight_smile:

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Everything you said here is exactly what I’ve been wondering myself… Seems like there ought to be an explanation for this. How could it NOT be massively cheaper? What am I missing?

when you consider there is 3 main distributed storage systems based around crypto Storj is the more expensive of the 3 i am not saying that it needs to be a race to the lowest price as that is just silly as proven by Sia but i do think that it may be better to find ways to cut costs that will still make hosts earn the same or more obviously the main issue is that data needs to be sent via the satellites and that makes the satellites deal with the full network bandwidth both in and out so for each 1TB that is stored a satellite will have to both download and upload the full 1TB using 2TB of bandwidth then the same again when its retrieved by the user this is not very efficient

That is not correct. Data gets sent between node and customer directly. No satellite involved.

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It’s something like that, but not nearly that sneaky. It’s just that any piece needs metadata stored on the satellite and the object fee covers that. Files that are small enough are even stored in line, if the metadata would be larger than the actual piece data.

seen a few posts say that was the case as very small files can end up stored on the satellite i think storj could do with making a better diagram of how things actually work right now as somuch i have read is outdated or wrong

Like this?

The technical part is described in details in https://storj.io/whitepaper/

FYI - Storj never sent customers’ data via satellite (now) or the bridge (in v2), so this information is not outdated, it’s simple wrong.

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May be drifting off topic at this point, but is there some sort of marketing strategy?
I would think some small portion of fees should go into marketing. Possibly that amount of fee would be tied to how much unutilized storage space exists in the network?
As nodes fill to bursting the marketing drops off. Lose a little to fees but make it back up in volume for utilizing more of your node? I’m a new operator so I don’t have context for how much space is unused on older nodes.
Apologies if my thinking shows an ignorance for how things are set up.

I suspect Storj Labs will wait until the technical side has matured significantly and Tardigrade is feature-comparable to the alternatives before going all out on the marketing.
Seems like a sensible approach to me :slight_smile:

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Yes and no, in my humble opinion.
I’m no marketing expert, but someone said once that if you’re too proud of the product your putting on the market, you probably waited for too long. I guess what that means is that one should find the right spot between being too early (with a buggy product, unstable, or useless) and being too late with the best product you’ll ever see that took 15 years to develop… and the market is now fully occupied by competitors.

And I think that’s what StorjLabs tried to achieve by going to production with a product that works and is robust, but still needs many features and integrations with other products/companies.

I think now would be a good time to speed up commercial actions.
But of course, that’s easier said than done :slight_smile:

My thoughts:

1.) I can’t see this scaling for SNO. Essentially the system demands that SNO have full failover capacity (100% uptime and no faults on connection). Hard drive costs/power costs etc are on SNO. My node has 10 cents income. 2/3 will be withheld.
2.) Diagnostics are demanded and use sysadmin time.
3.) Power lies with storj. Payment, withholding of funds.
4.) Initial set up is easy, but then one needs to crawl in the forum on what to do. Maybe fun as a project but not a business proposition.
5.) This feels a lot like Adsense in the beginning. Work work work for a couple of pennies. Money can be withdrawn not by Google but by Storj on an algo change.
6.) Just logically building up a Google AWS data center that is competitive can only be done by shifting costs to SNO. Infra structure costs each SNO has to carry + the risk. There are no bulk order discounts, etc etc etc.
7.) SNO need to be seen what they are, small providers and it can’t be demanded that we have full up systems, without clear feedback or any form to check how the system looks from storj’s view. The audit suspension online is too few information.
8.) Log files are too cryptic
9.) One satellite went from 100% to 0 overnight, others are 100 and others at 90 something. All are satellites are pingable. Putting the whole system in DMZ.
10.) As a beginner I have no information what’s going on. I checked the drive 0 bad blocks. Error logs show ping problem with the satellite that was done on the 14th and two EOF problems.
11.) Google and Amazon have staff that deal I assume with 100 and 1000 of nodes. Here we have an operator for far less with more risk etc.

If I want to scale this too something serious income would need to be 1000 dollars a month.

From where I am sitting that’s a 10000 times increase.

How would this happen?

Even if the system is trustless, the winners have to be SNO and STORJ, otherwise this is just another Google type centralisation scheme, maybe unintended but the ultimate result. Inflation by those that want for whatever reason, offer storage at a loss (as with Google, wikipedia, where someone always wants to offer free content, or content at a loss.)

Happy to be convinced this is not the result.

Storj looked like the best administered project. Filecoin seems dead from their forums.

Hello @Koesters,
Welcome to the forum!

The requirements you can see there: Prerequisites - Storj, your node should be online at least 99.5%, 100% is desired, but not required.
The held amount is calculated accordingly ToS, and you can see details here: Decentralized Cloud Storage — Storj or in the documentation: How does held back amount work? - Storj

Don’t get it. Could you elaborate? There is no algorithms like in mining, so just don’t get it.

These metrics are only matter, and you can see them on the dashboard. We doesn’t have any other at the moment. If you want to see details, like used coefficients from storj/node-selection.md at 6a553ec9c5df94681c88ada43a6b9ae18464b8ee · storj/storj · GitHub, you can use storagenode’s API: Storage node dashboard API (v1.3.3)

Please, do not use DMZ, it’s dangerous - you open every single port of your device to the whole internet, use port forwarding instead.
If your node doesn’t have audits for a month, every downtime will affect your online score much more, because your node simple doesn’t have enough audits.
To make sure that your node is online we recommend to use uptimerobot.com
Your online score should recover in the next 30 days online. Every downtime will reset this counter and requires to have the next 30 days online. You can read more there: How is the online score calculated? - Storj

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I do the “Internet” since Web 1. I had servers with millions of pageviews. First there was no payment. Then Google added adsense and there was a way to be paid. This was fine for a while. I made 10000 a month, then Google started a constant algorithm update, then more and more and more content was added etc etc etc and what ypu could earn was pennies. You had Matt Cutts (Matt Cutts: Gadgets, Google, and SEO) then at Google lecturing what is good content (for Google etc).

When you discussed these issues there were the ones that were happy that they could buy a coffee once in a while with adsense income.

And then came Wikipedia with the world offering content for free etc etc.

Now most websites are littered with ads or are behind paywalls like it used to be with real newspapers.

In a global marketspace there are very few niches and chances are that somewhere on the other side of the globe someone gives stuff away for social currency. Hence soon there will be 3 data scientists working at Google and Amazon, the rest does either something real or delivers parcels for the gig economy.

So I generally like the decentralised stuff but in the beginning price dumping as per OP can’t be were one can compete.

I think you need to market this as some form of pseudo Elite stuff like Apple. Medicocre hardware and a BSD clone for exorbitant prices. Slap something shiny on it an make it idiot proof.

Like with OS:
MS: pricey but not exorbitant
Apple: for those that have money to throw in the wind for social currency.

Unix etc for free.

In the moment Storj is in the MS space competing with the market leaders.

Free is not an option, so make it an Elite product.

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To make sure that your node is online we recommend to use uptimerobot.com

Make it more idiot proof also on the SNO side. I have two webservers, 8 miners, one Science company etc. I popped one Storj node up as a test and will give Chia coin a test now.

Likely others will do a quick test with a 2 TB, I have a 14 for Chia and a 12 TB for Data to test on Ocean.

The current guide lets you install a node quite easily what comes when you run one, one can only guess.

I think the crypto currencies can work with decentralised as they just exist in a persons mind space and are nothing real besides a shared story, like Fiat. Interaction with real hardware and real things will hit normal economic limitations.

But I am open.

I also bought an Apple once, while I like the BSD underneath it is essentially a colossal waste of money for something you can easily use Linux for. I now also found out you can’t even use it as a CPU miner as the power that comes in discharges the battery with more than one core even when plugged in and that only with display off. CUDA doesn’t work anymore as Apple made some weird decision with NVIDIA and now they move to ARM. So cheap processors the Instagrammers of the world will pay dearly for.

Well so I still hope that someone fights the mega corporations, hence I mine Monero as they actively fight centralisation. So what I try to express is that I support all these web3 things but out of experience I am sceptical.

Or sell it as a revolutionary product for unhinged capitalism critics like me. The USA ditched their anti trust laws, hence we are now in this weird world, of mega monopolies.

In a decentralised project SNO’s should be part of the marketing and sales perspective.

One should look at real world projects that work like COOPs.
https://www.google.com/search?q=COOP

A coop is often more expensive. They have to compete in the real world. While they have not been able to totally stick with the original intention, they still exist though.
COOP - Google Search

Oh my. Behind a single /24 subnet, that’s totally impossible. Have a look at @BrightSilence’s estimator to have a rough idea on what to expect, and how long it takes to “ramp up” the return on investment (copy the google sheet in your account, then fill in your numbers):

In 10 years, you would still earn less than 150$ per month (by providing 40TB of storage), if network activity were to stay roughly the same as it is these days.
Everyone’s hopping for the network and its usage to scale up. But even if it did, more SNOs would probably join in, which means that it wouldn’t necessarily increase that much what a single SNO can earn.

If you have several IPs behind different /24 subnets, then it’s different as you could store more and faster, making your earning go up quicker.
But unless you have a lot of different IPs, being an SNO is not the best recipe for getting rich.
Not yet anyway…

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it was more of a rhetorical question with a bit of hopium. :slight_smile:

Since the payment is in storj,

these prices seem to be USD/storj dependent or are we fixed on USD and get storj depending on USD?

that’s what i meant in a globalised market chances are high someone will be richer and can afford better hw and infra structure. Which makes this web2. Inflationary supply and only aggregators make an income. Google etc are aggregators.

We (Operators) are fixed in USD and receive them in STORJ on send date. The same for customers - if they pay with STORJ, tokens converted into USD balance, but will receive +10% more unlike paying with Credit card.

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Aaah sorry :wink:

Unlike mining where you get more money right away if you throw more hardware (i.e. CPU power) to your rig, here with Storj it doesn’t work this way.
If you were to offer 1500TB overnight, it wouldn’t do anything except sucking up an awful lot of electricity…
Again, except if you have many IPs behind different /24 subnets.

The whole point of Storj is to be as decentralized as possible, so it’s quite difficult to create a datacenter in one place for Tardigrade, because they don’t want to avoid that ^^

So… yes, only the aggregator gets the chance to make a decent amount of money.

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