From my understanding you would still receive payment for the current rate throughout those months and it would only be reduced at the time the “economic model” changed. I don’t think you would loose anything. However at that point you would have to reassess whether or not it’s still profitable for you to continue running the node. Although I think you have to continue until month 15 to get half the held funds back followed by a graceful exit to get the rest.
With respect Graceful exit is a waste of time currently.
I’d be happy with one of the above rules. It is a combination of both plus the coming economic changes combined with them that is off putting for me.
Since I am already running a node with a lot of data, I will not stop it, there is no point for me to do that, even if payouts go down. Hopefully traffic goes up to compensate for the lower rate.
However, with respect to the “do not buy anything” advice and similar - at least for me, there is some kind of minimum level at which it is “worth it” doing something For example, let’s say I could set up a new node that would have free electricity, internet connection and hardware, but it would be only 1TB or so. What I would get for the 1TB, while still technically profit, would not be with the effort spent in setting up and looking after the node.
4 Likes
I agree with most of this… but I don’t agree that this is just in favor of SNO’s. It’s at least as much in favor of customers. I fear this attitude would lead to very one sided cuts, instead of a more complete look at the entire product to make it viable on both sides. But I won’t speculate too much until we know more.
I’m not sure this would be viable for me. Energy costs are a mess at the moment. I pay 0.66EUR per kWh. And on average my HDD’s (just the HDD) uses 8.5W from the wall. This would come down to $4.26 per month. That’s significant and depending on the size of the payout drop, many of my HDD’s might not be profitable to keep running. Assuming the numbers I mentioned in the top post ($1 for storage, $5 for egress/repair) for payouts, a 4TB HDD would make roughly $5.26 for a profit of $1.00 a month (assuming 3.9TB allocated, which is already way higher than Storj recommends). And that’s when full and without held amount… Given the time it takes to fill up and get out of that held amount period, 4TB would not be viable anymore, unless already mostly filled up. And 3TB would run at a loss even if already full.
This is a really bad time for payout drops…
For me personally this applies mostly to the additional external HDD’s in a 10-bay USB enclosure. I have nodes running on unused space in the internal array for my always on NAS as well. Those will remain viable simply because I don’t have to compensate for energy costs. But yeah, I’d have to seriously consider taking half of my space offline or migrating more of it to my internal array.
3 Likes
Having said that, I need to quote again what @john has said during one of the Twitter Spaces:
i remember early on we had a a theory that our hypothesis was that it would be hard to find people to contribute capacity but it would be easy to find people who would use the space and we actually had it exactly backwards right it was new technology so people were very reticent to adopt it from using it to store their data perspective but anybody we found it very easy to get people to contribute space
I hope Storj will not make the same mistake again, now the other way around.
That’s really nasty.
If there are good times to increase prices to customer ever then it is now. Anyone would understand it.
2 Likes
If you look at Store - ASUS WebStorage we get a 1Tb cloud application for $55 per year or $72 per PC.
If this is divided per month, it comes out to $4.50 to $6.25 per month.
I suppose if for the mobile version of Storj to take $ 3 for a terabyte of storage for photos and small files, it will be fine, but from a PC and for storing large files, users will also take $ 5. It turns out that the average delta per terabyte will be $4
...
If we assume that NAS consumes about 45W in working condition with a disk / disks, then for a month at a cost of 0.66 Euro per sq. we will get = 0.045 * 24 * 30 = 32.4 Kw * 0.66 = about 22 Euro.
(The simplest US consumes 25W which will be about 12 euros per month for electricity at the rate of 0.66)
If we assume that the storage operator receives $ 2 for 1Tb per month (this is both storage and traffic), then it turns out that the self-sufficiency of the outlet is only on a fully occupied 12Tb drive.
- Internet cost
- Depreciation (at least save on buying a new one every 3 years)
- Earning\Profit?
This is not taking into account the battery for the uninterruptible power supply, time and so on.
I’m all about the fact that you need to focus on large storage operators who cost a lot of disks, then it will be profitable for them to work and users will be able to get, in addition to being cost-effective, also a reliable service.
There is nothing for small and homely people to do here: It’s time to understand this is a project about making money or just for fun!
Where are you at that you’re paying 0.66 eur per kwh? That seems very high. I did some cursory searches for top energy prices in Europe. Eurostat has the highest in Greece at 0.30 (Eur) per kwh, and the lowest is Finland at 0.08 per kwh.
At 0.30 I calculate 9.86 per month.
I’m in the Netherlands… I didn’t have a fixed term contract when this mess began. So my variable tariffs went up a LOT.
Btw, I think I found your quote:
It isn’t the first half of 2022 anymore. Back then I paid 0.17 EUR.
2 Likes
Gotcha, so the war and other external factors is putting your prices up. Makes sense.
1 Like
I can’t say if this is 100% accurate. But at least for Germany it seems plausible.
3 Likes
Seems a little low for NL, but they might be excluding taxes. Which are relatively high here, compared to other countries. I did just notice my costs would drop to 0.43 EUR in April. But I doubt it’ll ever be close to 0.17 EUR again…
This thread is long enough without repeating posts. You can just link to a previous post and add context instead. Now I’m trying to figure out which parts are new and which parts I already responded to before.
I’m not sure what prediction you are talking about. But why make people compare posts to find out what they’ve already responded to? Just post your new thoughts and link to the old post for context. People aren’t looking for a homework assignment here, but an informed discussion. I think I’ve already responded to most of what your post said, so yeah… I kind of wasted my time reading everything again.
Please provide a simple flow chart or stop posting nonsense replies. Thank you very much.
3 Likes
Everything is just “IsThisOn” drowns for the fact that everyone would not be node operators, but housewives who will be enough to get $ 10 once a year and buy lollipops.
I believe that the world is full of competent specialists who can provide redundancy, volume, monitor the status of disks, and so on. For such literate people, a platform is needed where they can realize themselves and their equipment, which are ready to be self-employed.
In turn, I definitely won’t keep a backup copy knowing that this is a disk image of, for example, 500 GB, divided into pieces of 2 MB and stored by housewives who are turned on only during working hours … But I am ready to pay for a convenient interface and confidence. As I wrote in the next thread, I pay for Google drive, iCloud, Asus because the interface is simple, it’s easy to transfer everything you need and, most importantly, it’s easy to pay.
If Storj cooperates, for example, with TON, it will be a gun race, convenient and huge potential. Moreover, TON wants to make its own repository and perhaps the projects will complement each other.
I propose to let the project management re-read all this, look at the prices for electricity and give a proposal for discussion, and now close this discussion.
2 Likes
But, will it be worth it to her to run the node just to get something like $2/year? If so much downtime is allowed, the file would need to be split into so many pieces that node operators would not really get anything. Combine that with low uptime and low amount of data.
That $2/year will be eaten by transfer fees.
There are multiple reasons why the “only unused storage” model may not work. For one, it is not worth doing anything if your maximum expected payment is $2/year. $2 may be a lot of money in some poor countries, but people usually do not have computers or reliable internet connections there.
Another reason is that there is no way to shrink the node. Running some distributed computing project or CPU/GPU mining coins (when it was possible) can be done by using the idle time of the CPU (power consumption goes up though). As soon as I want to play a game, the other process stops. However, if I decide to use my previously unused storage, I cannot, not without losing some income by deleting a node and creating a new one. I cannot just shrink it so I can store a video or something on my server.
So, the model is basically for people, who:
- Are OK with spending time and effort for a bottle of beer per year
- Have some unused capacity in their drives
- Do not plan on using that capacity ever (why did they buy a drive that was too big then?)
2 Likes
I’m not sure why you would say I won’t respond. Feel free to point to something I didn’t respond to yet and I’ll be happy to share my opinion on it.
That said, I don’t see what’s changed since I started this topic. If you’re referring to the post saying payouts will likely drop, this isn’t news. That’s the whole reason I started this topic. And there have been enough hints about this in other Storj communications. At most it’s a little more concrete. And yes, energy prices have gotten a little worse too. It doesn’t change my opinion on anything substantial. I’ll stick around with the nodes for which it makes sense. I’ll have to decide what to do with the others.
I know for a fact that they do. Which is why I would prefer to not repeat things in this topic. As it is enough of a chore for them to work through it already.
Not with less than 30% of uptime. If her PC is accessible 8 hours per day and only on working days, she would get proportionally less. Why? Because the data would need to be distributed to more nodes (totaling more copies) to compensate for the intermittent nature of the nodes. Best case scenario she gets $192 times her uptime. So, if her PC is on 40 hours per week, that’s 23.8% uptime and $38/year.
But, it gets worse. Her PC being on 24% of the time means it will take years to get the 12TB, likely the drive will fail before that (USB drives are not really designed to be accessed all the time).
Node operators live in lots of different countries, it would be very expensive to transfer fiat to all of them due to different laws etc.
For example, if I wanted to send money to the US, it would cost me something like 24EUR, possibly more.
It could work. Part of the expense of a datacenter is the internet connection, another part is hardware. Using “home” internet connections and “desktop” hardware makes it cheaper. Of course, then a lot of the data goes through the Storj S3 gateway (how many customers actually use the uplink or their local S3 gateway?) and its “datacenter-grade” internet connection.
Subsidies were needed to get people interested. Setting up and looking after the node takes about the same amount of effort for 1TB as for 20TB and I may not be interested in doing it if all I can expect is 1TB and $3/month. So, subsidies were meant to bridge the gap until there are enough customers, but, I guess, getting enough customers is a problem.
In all this AGAIN I dont see any STORJ word. before this there is nothing more to discuss.
because all this is just asumption.
5 Likes
it is a problem i would like to see a report on hows STORJ salesmen did in 2020-2022. Coz STORJ do have sales department, right?.. if sales department doing correct stuff like for example Brian Tracy described in his books, then everything is all right and on track! But if not… then no hope, sorry nooot a single little one, do not expect ppl will just jump in, because they have no clue what the benefits are, if WE KEEP IT SECRET! Also its an effort to change habits, and has to be worthy FOR WHAT to change. So how’s STORJ salesmen doing?
EDIT: sooo have no problem if u cut operators payment by half,
IF You double the network traffic,
coz my nodes are snoring! They need action.
So You can do this by rising sales min.2 times!
You do this first, then You start cutting our nodes payments gradually, mm’kay?
And everyone will be happy.
1 Like