Relation between token and company

And even more important: if he was a grid operator, would he permanently draw 200MW because he wants the power plant to not miss out on any revenue?

Then again, he already did not quite get my taxi driver comparison pretty much at the start of the thread…

3 Likes

There is no flaw in my understanding of the economics… 185,000,000 tokens worth $2.39 implies that the storj/tardigrade project is currently publicly worth $442,150,000, this is only based on what is in circulation too (releasing the others would obviously cause a price drop)… That’s far more extreme than the Azure and AWS market value for blob/S3 storage… It’s not actually worth a fraction of that is it?

Stob has had 321.41 of these tokens to date. Which leads me to quote you further: “crypto-economics” is “economics” at the end of the day. This is a major flaw on that basis alone, 321 tokens of 185 million, over a long stretch too!

This concept of STORJ coins is relatively new, its one of very few crypto’s where a realistic service/product is actually involved and some good innovation, good potential, and a competing one with the real world as well… I’m not surprised investment isnt recommended, it does come across as a fun thing to do rather than an actual project to get involved with, because there are no incentives.

You know miners expect to put what we have in to something and make use of it to its max potential.

What other payment models were explored, other economics? Even something as simple as a flat “1 STORJ” per TiB per Month, regardless of the price of STORJ? Wait a minute, the network would grow then?! Then it would shrink!? Then it would grow?! Maybe some controls/rules required at that point?

SON’s would be cashing in their STORJ to buy tardigrade storage and using it up to cause the network to grow, causing an influx on the network, miners coming and going… You probably get what I’m saying… Was this ever considered or simulated?

I see so its more or less a 3:1 ratio.

It’s not money though is it, it’s ERC20 tokens, which were generated in a few clicks…

I probably would insist they take more from me so i could get more earnings… Yeah definitely.

The financial model that was considered and is used is prices being half of what the other large providers like AWS have. These companies use fiat for payments, as they should, cryptocurrencies are very volatile comparatively, as does Storj from customer’s perspective. Storj does use a flat price of $10 per terabytemonth and $45 per terabyte of download traffic. And it IS regardless of the price of Storj.

It absolutely does not. These are not shares. The token value implies the value of the token only, not of the project or company.

For all intents and purposes it is fiat money. Customers pay dollar amounts, Storj Labs takes a cut in dollar amounts and SNOs get paid in dollar amounts. For purposes of the economic model the tokens might as well not be there. As for generating. These tokens were created all at once when the contract was created. They aren’t being generated anymore. But since the token value changes don’t cause price increases or decreases for the product, it’s value is also not that much tied to the product. And this is a good thing. Otherwise the product would just have become a lot more expensive with the recent price increases.

Yeah good luck with that… I don’t think forcing people to buy your product is usually very successful.
You would probably very reasonably get the response that you shouldn’t have created capacity you knew there was no demand for.

What is your argument for the “SNO’s are being kicked about” part? It takes about a year to a year and a half to earn back the investment in an HDD that would usually last 5+ years. So you can make a decent profit on any hardware you can provide to Storj (as long as you make an effort to match it to realistic demand). If you were expecting a get rich quick scheme, I think the problem is not how Storj rewards SNO’s, but a matter of unrealistic expectations. Your service just isn’t worth as much as you think.

If you don’t think there is currently enough data coming in… then don’t be a SNO. Enough people make that decision and there are fewer nodes and more data per node. This will balance itself out until there are just enough SNOs happy enough with the amount of data they get. Which means it by definition will never become extremely lucrative to invest. Because you are competing against people who use existing equipment that is already online. So with no costs at all, I’ll take any income I can get. My standards will be quite a bit lower and I won’t be alone. So adjust your expectations accordingly.

6 Likes

Forget the USD and value of STORJ, I’m talking about what would be seen as an (unconverted) stock dividend… Was this model ever explored or considered?

"These are not shares. The token value implies the value of the token only, not of the project or company."

They are tradeable, and what is in cirulation is tradeable, the volume is a result of the business plan and solely the responsibility of STORJ… I said “publicly worth” and it is a representation of value. If someone with a big stake sold millions of tokens on the market, the price would plunder to near-nothing… Isn’t that quite worrying? They would eventually get bought up though, if anyone was interested…

"What is your argument for the “SNO’s are being kicked about” part?"
The rewards system is based on converted tokens… Customers at tardigrade are paying a flat rate USD, the service usage is based on USD, then a one-way conversion to STORJ is happening based on USD market rates and then the SNO’s are being pretty much fed USD. From there, there is a 50/50 chance things could get better or worse for token holders, the price of STORJ could get higher or lower based on market activity.

FileCoin seems to be having slightly more complex economic-idea issues too, from what i have read about it, but slightly dissimilar to this, miners are moaning. For context shall we refer to SNO’s as farmers/harvesters from now on? So as not to trigger people?

"If you don’t think there is currently enough data coming in… then don’t be a SNO."

If another model was in place, there would be more than enough data coming in… Because there would be the potential for SNO’s to make the network grow.

Imagine from day one, 1 STORJ per TiB (or some other “proof of whatever” unit), or 10 STORJ per GiB, and it stays like that with perhaps some stabilising tweaks, such as a variation in this value based on perhaps market rates and network activity. Likening this to “difficulty” variances?

unrealistic expectations
This is the buzzword? It’s more unfair than unrealistic.

At best the represent the value of the utility of that token. Definitely not of the project. At worst (and more realistically) the represent speculative value to investors in the token. This is so far removed from the value of the project that this

is simply a false statement. That’s what the token speculation and utility is worth and says nothing about what the project is worth.

Not really… I mean not more worrying than any other tradeable asset. Storj Labs has been a pretty good steward of the token. Their reserves are in rolling lockups that can be viewed on the blockchain. They have quarterly token reports to inform the community of any changes that may be upcoming. Of course they can’t control what other large token holders will do… but that’s the same with any token.

More importantly, for the business this really doesn’t matter. If you sell your income when you get it, you’re guaranteed to get the USD amount you were owed. So you can take on as little or as much token risk as you want as both a customer or SNO.

From there it is also entirely up to you whether you want to keep the tokens or trade them. I don’t see the problem.

The reason people keep redirecting the terminology is not because we have our own word, it’s because being a SNO is something completely different from being a miner. Storj is NOT a “proof of whatever” system. It’s providing a service to customers who need storage space. It works on supply and demand. If there are no customers who want to store data, there is no data to store. Simple as that.

You really need to get your head out of that entire miner headset and not just swap out terminology. This network works nothing like you are describing. What you are describing is how burstcoin works. That uses a Proof of Capacity system. But since it doesn’t really provide any value to end consumers, it’s pretty much impossible to make decent money there. Give it a try though if you believe that business model is better. But that’s not what Storj is about.

Spoiler alert: Last I checked burstcoin mining made less than $0.25 per TB per month and dropping…

It seems to fit. I pointed out exactly in my previous post how SNOs get fair compensation for the service they provide. Unless you counter that with some actual arguments, I’m going to stand by my previous statements and leave it at that.

7 Likes

If you are worried about that, you can convert your tokens the moment you receive them to something that seems less worrying to you.

Actually SNOs have been referred to as “farmers” in earlier stages of the project :wink:

3 Likes

Yeah the STORJ payout beats competitors (ref burstcoin/filecoin). I think the train has been and gone on the earnings for STORJ and serious players, which STORJ isnt’ clearly suited for. If you were in on the early days, you would have got big payouts, when the STORJ coin was low-price and tokens being pumped out all over the place due to load testing etc, being banked until a later date when its inevitable that the price will increase… Maybe the STORJ coin will increase in value later on, but there is no way to tell these things for sure. Truly is a gamble.

Spoiler alert: Last I checked burstcoin mining made less than $0.25 per TB per month and dropping…

Flawed economics are at play there, I’ll be checking them out (and Chia). Another great concept with ecology in mind too. It does say on one article though “it suffered a significant price decline after it was delisted from Poloniex” - A black swan event of sorts has shafted it then…

@JimboSlice The STORJ token is utility token for simple transfer of USD value between parties, it’s not shares, securities or investment into the company.
As a user you can pay for storage and bandwidth in STORJ tokens, they will be converted to USD with a 10% bonus to your balance.
As a supplier of resources you will be paid in USD converted to STORJ tokens on send date.
All calculations are made in USD.

5 Likes

Although I agree on the theory, in practice this isn’t the case anymore because of the ERC-20 transaction fees these days. Unless there’s a way to convert Storj to USD with no fees I’m not aware of?

But Hopefuly that’s just until ETH2.0 comes out…

Totally agree on the rest :slight_smile:

1 Like

As a reminder, we don’t participate in trading competitions, airdrops, or conversations that could be interpreted as speculation about the price of STORJ token. As you may know, Storj Labs aims to be leaders in compliance and governance, and our current policy and approach is to avoid these types of activities.

1 Like

True, maybe Storj Labs will consider implementing looping payments, which is similar to zkSync but also provides a decentralized exchange on L2. Haven’t looked into it much myself yet, but that would at least allow you to trade it for other tokens. Including USDT ERC20 if you’re looking for something stable.

2 Likes

https://medium.com/matter-labs/zkporter-a-breakthrough-in-l2-scaling-ed5e48842fbf

4 Likes

Even better! Thanks for the heads up on that.

So a pyramid scheme then lol?

Pretend there is no storj coin. You are a landlord renting out data. That is all. No mining.

The sole reason for storj to exist is that the payments are so small that using ach transfer or PayPal or any other form of payment wouldn’t work. So they made their own crypto to facilitate low cost payments to bode operators.

Decentralized storage had never worked in the past due to the inability to pay small operators.

The investment you are making is in your nodes reputation. So that if/when storj gets more customers your node will get a lot of the data, and you’ll start making better money. Then you can upgrade your node with more space.

Right now I’ve made ~ 5k usd from running a node for about 2 years. I’m a trader though, and held the coins waited for the inevitable alt coin season to sell.

My node is 16tb, and makes $65 per month. Server is from a dumpster. Hard drives are from a dumpster, the only thing I bought was an unraid license. Keep the server in efficient power scheme, the power costs are negligible.

I plan on merging the node with the next computer I’m building for myself to make things more efficient since the dumpster server, while free is a bit overpowered. Also loud.

1 Like

@JimboSlice New pricing announcement
Looks like you got what you asked for.

2 Likes

I saw that tardigrade has been rebranded, got newsletter, will have to fully get myself up to date on matters. Big changes are these in a matter of moments lol.

2 Likes