Storage Nodes Full of Test Data

Dear @fikros,

thanks a lot for your message: it definitely makes me think and most probably I am one of the few that has little interest in the money. The computer on which Storj is running is already busy with the folding at home project. Basically the only thing which was not used by F@H was the HDD and the internet connection. This is why I started looking for an HDD sharing project and this is how I came across V2 years ago. So, basically, since I am already volounteering for another project, most probably I am already coming from a biased background. :smiley:

If I was considering the money an important topic I would not invest that much effort in a project which is paying in Storj, an unknown cryptocurrency, which, I believe, will be very expensive to exchange in a useful currency. Add to that the volatility of cryptocurrencies… waaay too risky. Am I wrong?

I mean, the only thing I could use storj cryptocurrency for, is to buy some storage service, is it not? Otherwise if I wanted to use that money to pay my electricity bill I should exchange Storj to Ethereum and once more to €/$… I have no knowledge on how it works, but I always had the idea that all this steps will be super expensive.

Let me add some comments to your message.

They are, correct? What you suggest is that they should pay more, if I understand you right? On the other hand I remember that when they were looking for further SNOs they did increase the pay (following the Uber model, is it not?).

You are right. But money alone is not enough to motivate people either and if not managed carefully could istigate some hit and run behaviour as well. And once more: if you have your servers already running 24/7 what is the expense that you have to cover? You are already covering the costs for electricity, already paying internet connection, etc.

I find more precious the time that we are investing in controlling the node and providing feedbacks. This is really precious in my opinion. And for that we are not getting any reward in terms of money… Not to mention the time I have invested in moving from docker (on windows), to docker on linux and after that back to Windows GUI. Jeez, such a waste of time (me being a noob did not help either! ahah).
The only reward we may have versus future SNOs is that, being here “since the beginning” will give us some advantage in terms of traffic (inbound/egress). I do not see why SNOs would invest so much time in checking the node, troubleshooting, writing feedbacks if not by being motivated of being part of a new project.

So, in my opinion, it is the beta testing that we are doing which is the big investment that we have decided (more or less consciously) to do and apparently storj successfully managed to get our trust on that. I have to admit though, that I have already thought more than once about quitting, as sometimes, getting the node to work properly and learning/testing new things ended up in being really time consuming and, when the offline time limit was active, quite stressful (e.g. doing all the migrations back and forth while trying to be offline for the minimum amount of time). Thankfully @Alexey was always there and very patient. :slight_smile:

In conclusion, the best advice that comes to my mind, is to suggest everyone to join our team on F@H and start volunteering for real! :rofl: Visit Swiss Folding Team for details.

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Thanks for your supportive comments. Just fyi, it is not excessively expensive to exchange STORJ for other crypto such as Bitcoin or Ethereum, and go from there to your local fiat currency. You can do it easily by following these instructions. I also want to commend you for participating in FAH. I have been doing the same volunteering for foldingcoin.net myself (yes, you can help cure diseases and earn crypto by participating in Folding@Home). But that is off-topic for this forum. Keep up the good work!

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@aseegy I see your points and if Storj was developed to build a free file storage system, like Linux is a free OS I would agree with you but Storj is a commercial enterprise with the goal to compete with the big data-centers and make big profits. My suggestion was toward making it more profitable for Storj and the SNO’s.
You are never wasting your time when learning, only when maintaining a commercial system for free.
So far been an early adopter only fill-up your disk and block all trafic.
The tokens will be worthless if the project fail but if Storj is successful its gold.

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@fikros I do agree with your view.

Right now, even though I joined the beta out of curiosity with a spare 1TB disk I already had, I would consider carrying on and being part of the story on a long term if what StorjLab pay is an interesting enough incentive.
The project is really interesting technically but I also like the idea of competing with centralized solution giants like Amazon, Google… In a way, that’s brilliant and encouraging to be part of that as an SNO :slight_smile:
But passion alone won’t drive me further than just trying this out for a few months if it does not get me a bit of money along the way, I’ll be honest.

In my opinion, (and if I’m not mistaking) considering that bandwidth is sold around 45$/TB to users, it feels kind of fair to pay SNOs approximately half of that (20$/TB).

On the other hand, storage space is sold around 10$/TB to users, but SNOs get only a fraction of that (1.5$/TB), which is far from being enough for considering maintaining a fair amount of storage space. In my humble opinion.

We received an e-mail from StorjLab recently claiming that they are going to need way more space for future users, considering the number of developers on the waitlist, encouraging us to add more storage and invite our friends.
I think one fair way to motivate people for adding more space is to make this profitable:
What about paying SNOs at the very least 5~6$ per stored TB?
Especially if it becomes kind of the only revenue when a node is at its maximum storage capacity.

Anyways, great project, brilliant technology I’m sure :slightly_smiling_face: :+1:
Just need a way to make sure SNOs want to stay.

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hi @Pac
thanks for sharing your thoughts so eloquently – we love to hear from all viewpoints! The pricing model is something that we as a company spent a lot of time on. Since the flow of money is the lifeblood of a business we tried to look at it from as many angles as possible.
I understand and agree with you that each storage node operator will need to decide for themselves whether the arrangement is suitable to their needs. What we try to do is offer as much transparency as possible around what that arrangement consists of, so that people can be equipped to make that decision according to thier individuals prioirites and logic.

I do hope that you stay on!

I can also pass your comments on internally. Although Im not the person who runs the pricing model, you can engage with them in the live section of our Q&A section of the next town hall and hear a response form the horse’s mouth. The way to do that is to email ask@storj.io so your feedback can be imported to the list of featured comments.

Cheers for a great approach! Keep up the good work! Please keep the pricing model as a priority, because it’s a make-or-break matter.

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Hey @Pac

I think you’re overlooking something essential here. Every 1TB a user stores on the network needs to be redundantly stored with an expansion rate of roughly 2.7x. So that means you need to divide that $10 by 2.7 to know how much Storj roughly receives for each 1TB stored on nodes. So roughly $3.70 per TB. I think you’ll agree that similar to bandwidth a little below half is pretty fair or at least much more fair than your initial calculation.

A part of the income is also shared with open source partners, so Stroj is not pocketing the rest of it entirely either.

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Hello @BrightSilence, thank you for this clear explanation, I did overlook that.
As a new user, I’m still getting up to speed with regards to all the STORJ ecosystem.

This said, maybe there are a few things that can be adjusted and/or discussed with the community. For instance:

  • Storj do not pay us in dollars/euros, but in STORJ tokens that they mine themselves (I guess?). Doesn’t that mean that SNOs’ payments could be more or less unrelated to clients’ payments?
  • Storj are always going to be paid via trafic, globally (coming from all clients), whereas it might not be the case for some SNOs if their disks are full. Maybe most of the money collected for storing data could be paid to SNOs, like 3$ per stored TB.

Just trying to exchange thoughts :slight_smile:

2 posts were split to a new topic: Incentives and payments for making SNOs stay

STORJ doesn’t mine STORJ tokens. There is a fixed total amount that can never change. They have large reserves for now but when that’s gone they will be forced to buy them back themselves to pay SNOs. You should see the token as just an intermediate, it’s not a magic way for them to create money where there is none.

This could be an option, though there is something to say for paying nodes for the actual thing that brings value. I wouldn’t worry about the egress problem for nodes that are full too much as this is clearly an artifact of how specific test patterns are handled and this most likely will not be the case when most data on the network is actual customer data. So to a certain extent I think you’re trying to fix a problem that will no longer exist when the network is in full use.

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@BrightSilence Thanks for these insights. Maybe you’re right and having disks full of data won’t be a problem, let’s hope so :slight_smile:

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Can you develop on the subject. 425 millions STORJ have been created out of thin air, at the IPO they sold 60 millions STORJ at $.50 USD so they collected $30 millions USD. The customers pay in USD the SNO are paid in tokens, of course they can convert to FIA or hope that they will rise. Now after the SNO’s payouts137 millions STORJ are in circulations. I could be missing something but to me it looks like creating money where there is none.

Tokens are not being created out of thin air. The token sale in 2017 was not an IPO, as we migrated the already existing SJCX tokens from the Counterparty platform to convert them to STORJ ERC20 tokens on the Ethereum platform (and burning some of the inititial supply in the process, rather than creating more tokens magically). Please read our Token Balances and Flows reports which we publish quarterly on our blog to discover details about the exact amounts of tokens sold at the Token Sale, and the current status of lockup contracts that prevent Storj Labs from suddenly dumping huge amounts of tokens on the market. We transparently publish all details about our token’s sources and destiny of every single STORJ.

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I wasn’t talking about the ICO of SJCX or the token sale of STORJ and I won’t because honestly I don’t know enough of the details to comment on it. What I do know is that it’s not possible to create more STORJ tokens after that initial creation. So if you pay SNOs more than you make, you will bleed money until you die. It’s not a sustainable model. That said, it’s exactly what they have been doing for months and will be doing a while longer with surge payments and paying for all internal testing that doesn’t generate income for them either. Fine for now, but not sustainable long term, so normal payouts are based on what normal network use would earn them. And I wouldn’t want it any other way. Otherwise Storjlabs wouldn’t be able to survive long term and us SNOs kind of need them to survive in order to get paid going forward.

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Thanks for confirming and detailing my figures. I never said you were suddenly dumping huge amounts, you are just slowly diluting the STORJ value by monthly dumping STORJ’s on an already saturated market, bringing its value to daily new lows. The IPO was very successful and the STORJ went from its $.50 IPO to 3 shortly after, in a crypto craze time but since then it fall by 94% to .11, as no commercial product is available nearly 2 years later.

I fully agree with you when the bitcoin was created with a cap, it was great idea to stop inflation.
But when thousand’s of new crypto’s have been created, it completely defeat the idea. STORJ created 42.5mSTORJ out of fine air, the market on an offer/demand give its valu, when STORJ doesn’t come up with a product/income and dump STORJ tokens every month, it just dilute the STORJ value. If the users had to buy STROJ’s to use the system it would keep an offer/demand on the STORJ but would be very cumbersome for the customer dissuading most users. If storj was buying STORJ’s with every $ from its customer it would make sense and keep a value to the STORJ. But they don’t have any paying customers and are just running on the tokens.

Don’t you think it’s a bit premature to come to this conclusion before V3 is even in production?

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I agree that having users actually pay in STORJ for the service would generate a better token market. But you also mentioned the problem with that. Perhaps they could offer a modest 5-10% discount when the service is paid for in STORJ to both not limit payment methods to STORJ, but also give some incentive to use the token.

When customers will start using the service and pay in fiat, Storj will use this fiat to buy STORJ on markets to pay SNOs while, at the moment, Storj is living on its own STORJ tokens to pay SNOs? Can you confirm that this is what is happening/will happen?

I think everyone should keep in mind that official comments from Storjlabs regarding how they deal with tokens need to be handled with a lot of care in order to not unduly manipulate the value of the STORJ token. Forward looking statements like when and how they will buy back tokens are not likely going to be made here on the forum as a result of that. This is one subject where the usually very open and informal communication by Storjlabs is not an option. For statements regarding token management, it’s best to keep an eye on the quarterly token reports. And other official communications.

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