I proposed to completely and immediately abandon test traffic, synthetic information in order to discuss prices later.
Now we are saying what we would like to receive, talking about profitability and trying to find a balance so that everything would be profitable BUT it’s all pointless if we store the test, drive the test over the network and continue to pay for it from reserves, and not from customers!
We’re discussing an eventual solution to Storj losing money on every byte stored. There was always going to be a transition towards that solution. I think gradually getting rid of test data as well as gradually lowering the payouts is the right way to go, so the drop won’t be a sudden shock to node operators, causing a significant amount to leave at the same time.
That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t get rid of test data, it just means it should be done in a thoughtful manner. As to not cause more harm than good.
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I hope you leave us to scale easy if you cut price. For example 10 nodes per IP.
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Care to expand?
That, at the current stage with decent ingress, would lead to a black market for nodes.
That’s pretty cheap at scale. It doesn’t take a lot of manpower to operate a big cluster if all nodes are configured in exactly the same way, automation saves a lot of effort.
There would be some benefit to that: customer would initiate only a single connection and would not be required to spend bandwidth on the expansion factor. I’d think this would be pretty useful to some customers.
In my case these amount to around 1% of the transfer value, so not exactly a significant amount. I can understand that some SNOs have higher taxes though.
You probably have missed my post above.
I disagree on the fact that Storj would have no advantages here. This is a viable path. Not going to discuss it in this thread though.
I expect this session to be pretty heated. I wish I could join real time.
Based on my observations, my HDDs could cope with 3x-4x of the current traffic. I did spend a lot of time tuning the setup, though. And I could probably tune it even further with some changes to storage node code… I’d be breaking T&C though.
The companies that would choose Storj over Hetzner would probably do so because of disaster recovery (the offer I linked is non-redundant storage, fine for nodes, but not for durable storage without additional, pretty significant setup) or latency (not everyone is in Germany or Finland).
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That’s a fair point, but it doesn’t solve the trust issue either. The customer is entrusting whoever does the upload for them that a file is correctly stored on nodes. Storagenodes are inherently untrusted entities, so they couldn’t take care of that. And if you have to verify afterwards, that then introduces new costs and overhead again. It’s not an easy problem to solve.
Based on previous attendance I’m not convinced. I’ve yet to see anyone apart from me mention they intend to join. But we’ll see.
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So let me try to understand.
Storj is struggling to make the economic model that Storj created work, so Storj intends to solve the problem by taking the money from the SNOs that built the network Storj relies on to function?
Storj then added (multiple) edge services, despite many of us having symmetric gigabit fiber, or better. Today you are telling the SNOs that these same edge services cost so much that you need to reduce our compensation?
Storj proposes to do this by forcing loyal SNOs, individuals that have supported your network for years, into unprofitability right away. However, you will employ “some sort of surge payout” so SNOs don’t recognize the inevitable until you’ve found some way to (presumably) centralize the Storj network more so that it does not collapse as SNOs abandon the network, as you have abandoned them. This may not help the STORJ token price, part of the implied reason for the change(s).
My feedback is that this may negatively affect the relationship you have built with your SNOs, and that you might want to find a solution that is more balanced. Quite simply, in the 36 hours since I read this, I have been struggling to understand why I should keep my ~20TB of data with Storj, and not just fill it with data I personally care more about.
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Here are my numbers, at the moment, I’m using 8Tb drives, at 92% capacity, so I’ll like to upgrade to 20Tb soon.
I’m not taking into account:
- compute
- UPS
- internet connections
- /24 limit
- cooling
- man-hours (setup & maintenance)
- vetting+time needed to fill the drives
- or any other related services
So basically bare minimum running costs, with the cheapest drives that I could find
| Current | Proposal | New drives | 4Tb drive | |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| HDD price ($) | 150 | 150 | 360 | 100 |
| DiskSpace (Tb) | 8 | 8 | 20 | 4 |
| Tb/mo ($) | 1.5 | 1 | 1 | 1 |
| Egress ($) | 20 | 5 | 5 | 5 |
| Egress to DiskSpace (%) | 10 | 10 | 10 | 10 |
| Power usage (W) | 10 | 10 | 10 | 10 |
| Electricity price/kWh ($) | 0.6 | 0.6 | 0.6 | 0.6 |
| Electricity cost ($) | 4.32 | 4.32 | 4.32 | 4.32 |
| Profit ($) | 23.68 | 7.68 | 25.68 | 1.68 |
| Profit $/Tb | 2.96 | 0.96 | 1.28 | 0.42 |
| ROI in months | 6.33 | 19.53 | 14.02 | 59.52 |
This means that newer or smaller nodes don’t have a chance, so even if the signup is still open, it’s not worth it any more.
I really hope that storj finds a way to be profitable cuz I wanna get those 20Tb drives 
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The traffic with or without edge service is the same for storage nodes. Edge services work like proxies. The customer requests a download from edge services and edge services will download it from the storage nodes instead of the customer downloading it directly from them. From a storage node perspective, the result is the same.
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That makes sense, thank you for clarifying it for me. I’ve modified my original post to align with this.
Does this mean that the edge services do not cache any data that is frequently accessed?
That would require a lot of local storage and as of right now edge service wouldn’t charge the customer. The current accounting system requires storage node to submit orders back to the satellite. With caching in place there will be no order to submit.
Understood. Thank you again.
The real bottom line here is that nobody will run nodes at these prices. Money makes the world go round (so to speak) and if there’s no money in it for SNO’s, Storj’s world stops “going round”. People will do things that are profitable, even if it’s small… but doing things to essentially break even is no more than a hobby… and trust me, people get bored of hobbies.
Besides that, there isn’t enough “extra” storage space in the world to support what Storj is trying to do here. And even with the extra that IS out there, how many of those people know about Stroj? And how many of them have even basic enough skills to run a node? And of those, how many will essentially do it for free? I mean c’mon… Who in their right mind will want to shorten the lifespan of their drives for basically no reason? But for those that do, the first time their drive fails and they loose their personal data or simply have to pay for a new drive, they’re going to think twice about doing it again. People do this because it’s profitable, plain and simple. No profit, no Storj. Furthermore, things have continuously been moving to the cloud, people are moving to smaller and smaller devices such as laptops and tablets instead of desk PC’s… does Storj really think this will change? All of a sudden everybodys going to go back to desktop PC’s that are on all the time and have all sorts of “extra” space to give away for next to nothing?
Decentralized storage is a great idea, but the truth is Storj doesn’t charge enough to begin with to account for a “middleman” (Storj) taking a cut especially with a 2.8 expansion factor. The proposed pricing will only really be somewhat profitable for very large SNO’s. I don’t believe large SNO’s are bad though because let’s face it… if Storj wants to grow to compete with other large providers they will need large SNO’s. However, due to the /24 limitations this is obviously not what their going for. Now the whole “don’t buy any hardware for Storj” thing is nothing more than a loosly worded legal disclaimer so people don’t try to blame Storj if things go south… like if someone can’t do math… or if Storj fails… or a rug pull… Now I’d hate to think something like that last one, but the way it’s starting to look with all these things considered it kida looks like Storj want’s to eventually phase out SNO’s for a more centralized model. This is of course my opinion, but I simply can’t see any other way for Storj to be profitable. As I’ve stated in another post, even if SNO’s gave away their space for free it would not make Storj profitable… not for a good while anyway, and that sure isn’t going to happen.
I really don’t understand the direction Storj is going. To many things just don’t make sense. I won’t go into any more detail about that here as I have in other threads. Besides, it appears many have brought up similar things throughout this thread. Some will understand what I mean and some won’t. It saddens me to say, but it kinda feels like Storj doesn’t really want us anymore. I mean how did they think we would all react? I was obviously expecting cuts, but this? All I have to say is… lol.
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See: Lyft, Uber, and virtually every other “sharing economy” start-up.
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Originally, Storj started with the idea that distributing data to multiple nodes makes it cheaper to store it, because nodes usually use cheaper home internet connections and cheaper hardware. However, due to erasure coding, audits etc, the data can be just as reliable or more reliable than if it was stored in a datacenter somewhere.
The idea was that customers use the uplink program (or some module) to access the data, getting many transfers in parallel, so, high speed but cheap. Ads for Storj also talk about built-in end-to-end encryption and the decentralization and higher reliability because of that.
However, it seems that customers are not interested in end-to-end encryption, parallel transfers or anything like that, they just want S3 compatible storage without having to run anything locally (there is a local S3 gateway the customer can run). Since this is centralized and cannot just be run on random nodes, Storj needs to pay more for these servers, but customers are not charged more for the use of those services (in this case why would they bother setting up their own gateway, especially if the built-in end-to-end encryption is not needed?).
So, what we get in the end is almost the same as a regular datacenter S3 service - Amazon or whatever. Storj is probably going to just start up a few hundred of internal “nodes” and shift the data to them, completely transitioning to being almost exactly like Amazon, but less efficient and in some cases slower (time to first byte etc).
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Sorry I thought you were asking for official numbers regarding the test data stored on the network.
You can find them here: https://stats.storjshare.io/ and here https://storjstats.info/
No guessing required. With the knowledge which ones are the test satellites, this tells you how much test data is on the network.
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I am new here. But I have been operating a node for some time. I built the node with the instructions and made it VERY robust with tons of storage. It costs me substantially more to run the node than I have ever been paid. I figured in time, the combination of storage I am offering and the quality/speed of my FTTH would make this a worthwhile venture.
This is simply not viable. Consumers pay far too much in energy costs to justify nodes of my size and now, the idea that the the payouts will be reduced mean I just need to more accurately understand if this node will ever be a viable option or if I have wasted my time and money. I really don’t want to just pull the plug on my node, but maybe that is the actual answer.
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I would not not generally dismiss the marketplace idea though. When SNOs are cheap and get a lot of data, they are full early at some point. That’s when they would need to start to expand and bring devices online that would not be online anyway. So this ‘problem’ might level out in a way.
I don’t know if this model would work. It would require to take into account a lot of factors. But as said, to be able to set ‘my’ price would make the price discussion of this thread obsolete and is therefore appealing.
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Hi everyone:
First, thanks for the opportunity to participate in this endeavor with STORJ and this community. My participation and contribution to STORJ has been a gateway to learning many things.
Bottom Line Up Front: I don’t know if I can take the emotional hit of seeing any reduction in STORJ compensation. I’ve been contributing for nearly 4 years anticipating growth and this seems to be moving backwards. When would we ever feel like our investment is more than just a worthy cause? I don’t believe STORJ is a not-for-profit company so isn’t it reasonable to expect a mutual ROI? To reduce payouts for production data is to depreciate my overall investment and I don’t know if I’ll ever feel like that’s fair regardless of the reasonability. I realize that you must make the same decision as it relates to your ROI, too. But I would hope to see you balance this equation to profitability while appreciating my investment, too.
I am surprised by the proposed reduction in SNO compensation for services rendered. It feels like a depreciation of my efforts. There are tangible and intangible costs to being an operator and it increases with node count. I believe my contribution was significant in helping to enable STORJ’s business model but I can’t see a pathway forward that doesn’t enable growth for us both.
While I have realized worthwhile intangible benefits from contributing to this project, I want to rise with you as you grow. There should be a mutual ROI that’s proportional to the tangible and intangible resources poured into this project.
I am hopeful that you can find a way to make this worthwhile for your investors. I would like to see a return from 4 years of tangible investments, at least. But I understand a little bit about math and I know you have to make this work on your end financially. I just don’t see how the SNO’s take a paycut and can emotionally sustain it.
I am looking forward.
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While this sounds nice, it does not really help.
Surge payout adds uncertainty to the SNOs more than egress traffic already does. With surge payouts it is on Storj sole discretion and can change on a month to month basis. As SNO, even if you have an idea how much data you get, you have no idea into how much money this would translate. This makes any decision like expanding drives or proceeding with the node operation etc. a jeopardy.
Additionally compensation from network growth does not help when your disks are full or your home bandwidth is maxed out. If I cannot accept more data then I am left with what I have and your new low payout.
And furthermore it is totally unclear from this statement what growth could be really expected anyway. There is not even a hint if the Exabyte scaling requirement that you brought into the discussion is a requirement in sight.
With the proposed numbers I see a total strategic shift of Storj. It keeps moving to centralization because of the gateway services. But also because the payout numbers from the proposal will only work with expansion, which means SNOs who run on small hardware that they already have, will drop out.
Expansion will require investment, this means that the mantra ‘don’t buy’ will not work anymore but with the low payout you won’t earn enough to invest and to replace drives.
So while small SNOs will drop out data will centralize to the SNOs with the (already) deep pockets and big drives/servers.
This sounds like a massive shift in strategy intentional or not, but I think this will be the outcome.
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It’s like running a restaurant and saying to employees, listen guys, we have some financial problems and we won’t charge customers 2$ more for the coffee, instead we will cut your salary by 80%, oh and btw don’t forget about working this weekend 
And don’t forget, we’re talking about growing the network… with 80% cuts.
The weirdest thing is that the entire ecosystem around nodes, was made so that it was really really slow profit to be made to begin with. Held amount, low ingress, etc…
My node started earning around 6 months of running… Which basically means I was losing money running node for 6 months, and around 6 month my node was running for free…
So in general the whole system around nodes is built so that you basically have to invest from the start, even if you have already hardware to run it on… And you starting to get few $ after 6 months… so the ROI in current system is pretty much around 2 years of running node. And now since Storj is growing and we will have more data and more ingress, but less money. So how do we scale? we don’t, because we don’t have the money to do so. So we gonna run nodes for free until hardware breaks and when it does, we can quit with satisfaction, knowing that we helped you earn money
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