Longterm business viability of storj

[jammerdan]

@snorkel

This dosen’t need/has to change ever!

I think it has already started with the change in payouts.

[john]

@snorkel we just announced a way to enable data center operators and large scale providers to participate without outcompeting the individual operators.

Announcing Storj Commercial Storage Node Operator Program

Storj operates a public network that anyone can join with tens of thousands of nodes in over a hundred countries. Enterprise customers have workloads that are appropriate for the network, but, for some storage use cases, those enterprise customers need specific types of storage in specific types of facilities. To serve those customer requirements, Storj created the Commercial Storage Node Operator Program. This program is for large scale storage providers with significant available storage and …

[Toyoo]

Congratulations on timing!

[snorkel]

I always suspected that Storj will not rule out the joining of datacenters and they will somehow embrace them in a way. For now, this implementation seems beneficial for everyone. But… I have some fears. Let’s wait and see what the future brings, and if we are still in the game after a few years.

[zip]

Corporate world is always trying to find ways to save money.
Commercial nodes will be a nice Storj onramp for corporate data, but once they’ll realize they can get the same or maybe slightly lower performance storing their data on standard nodes, and people making the decisions will be incentivised enough (they always are) to find a way, they will switch to a cheaper option.
This also can be a good advertisement, where smaller customers looking for cheap storage will follow big players, but will be joining the standard nodes instead as they won’t need the certifications.

Edit: so it looks like the SNO rates will be lower in the commercial segment, not sure about customer pricing yet.

[mgonzalezm]

@zip

but once they’ll realize they can get the same or maybe slightly lower performance storing their data on standard nodes, and people making the decisions will be incentivised enough (they always are) to find a way, they will switch to a cheaper option

But technically how does it work?
if those big clients are already storing PBs of data and suddenly decide not to pay the premium.
Do they flip a switch in the satellite dashboard and de data is automatically evicted to normal SNOs ?
Do they need to re-upload all the data?

If the later, I think it will not happen.

[zip]

Storj might move it for them. If you are a big customer, undoable things are suddenly doable.
The question now however is, why would Storj store any data on standard nodes if the enterprise ones will have lower SNO rates.

[mgonzalezm]

@zip

why would Storj store any data on standard nodes if the enterprise ones will have lower SNO rates.

indeed, coupled with higher prices, therefore higher profits.
let see what they have to say.

[jammerdan]

@mgonzalezm

Do they need to re-upload all the data?

If the later, I think it will not happen.

Indeed, the most comfortable way would be to do it internally.
From what I understand is that the customer can decide on bucket level if he requires certain compliance by nodes: Release-v1.86 Test SOC2 repair vs non SOC2 repair · Issue #6185 · storj/storj · GitHub
So if the customer would move data from SOC2 bucket to Non-SOC2 bucket like with server side copy or something, that could be the way. Downloading and Uploading should not be the requirement because I don’t think it will happen. In either way, public or commercial node operators will not be delighted if customers will start to move PBs of data between the different networks.

@zip

why would Storj store any data on standard nodes if the enterprise ones will have lower SNO rates.

Interesting one. At least the customer has his say as long as he pays different prices. But you are right. In fact, Storj could simply lower the price to customer and still have the pieces being stored on the cheaper commercial node. In a way it is hard to believe that Storj would move to a more costly node when a customer wants to pay less.

[MattJE96011]

Well, can’t say I didn’t see that coming… was kinda hoping I was wrong though. Guess the solution to whales and Russia is f*** all of us. It is hard to imagine though that datacenters would even be interested in running Storj nodes… of course I’m sure they won’t have to manage hundreds of them. But if they think all the nodes in datacenters right now are actually in those datacenters they’re going to be sorely mistaken. They have to know that though. But if this is attractive enough to datacenters now, haha… we’re done. Small individual SNOs will be a thing of the past far sooner than I ever imagined. I do believe I mentioned something like this happening back during the initial payout proposal. Can’t say I’m surprised.

[Alexey]

Those are different layers. Not everyone customer needs SOC2 compliance, especially if they will be forced to pay premium for that. So, I do not think it could be the end of a normal supply, the entry level is also lower.

These layers have been suggested a long time ago by the Community:

Different price plans

The new and rebranded website is insane. However I suggest to offer different price models. Also a Modell with higher TB static price and without egress fees.

Delegate Traffic based on node type

Hi all, I’m new here so forgive me if this is not a new suggestion but thought I would throw it out there. Quick background, Developer by trade with a bit of operations thrown in. No doubt, we have a lot of different people and nodes connected. From hobbyists running a node on their laptop, to Homelab types and many in between. This effects what hardware and network each user has. Some with 500GB’s and an DSL/Cable connection. Some with 70TB’s and a gigabit+ connection with again, a large mix…

Storj as CDN provider

I feel Tardigrade users now treat Storj as AWS S3 Glacier which provide cheap archive storage. Hence, storage supplied by node operator are filled up with low value data and little egress traffic are demanded. Low reward results in a low incentive for node operator to provide high availability, high performance hardware (SSD RAID+10GbE). However, Storj has great potential as CDN provider like AWS Cloudfront, Akamai or Fastly, in which node operators can be benefited by high profit egress traffic…

Enterprise SNO Members

Forgive me if this has already been answered but has Storj/Tardigrade considered working with Enterprise SNOs who can offer storage space in a datacenter environment with cooling, redundant power and redundant internet? You could certify the SNO to ensure they meet the industry standards and they can have a greater benefit, such as less withholding of Storj coins or higher payout to cover expenses. Just food for thought. I know the idea is to be decentralized, and that can still be achieved by…

A service, professional SNOs could provide to customers who wants to transfer huge amounts of data onto Tardigrade

@jocelyn: And here is my idea from the other thread… When sourcing some links for my digital cinema thread, I stumbled over this Amazon link and thought what an interesting idea. If Storj really manages to attract customers with huge data volumes to transfer onto the Tardigrade platform, professional SNOs with huge bandwidth (like data centers) could become upload provider for Tardigrade. Basic idea is: New customer with let’s say like hundreds of terabytes of data receives data HDDs from the…

Implementation of node classes depending on their performance

Hi! Does Storj assume adding a data type breakdown that is stored on the network? I believe that if someone (for example) wants to store in Tardigrade a backup from their computer that they will need only if their equipment in the home fails, this data does not need to be stored on nodes with high performance and excellent connection. This type of data can be stored on slower nodes (for example, those that are running on Raspberry Pi). It’s something like S3 Glacier In contrast, files that a…

Tardigrade and Cold storage as a service

So, I was thinking on tapes as a storage medium and remembered that Amazon Glacier exists (Amazon’s cold storage solution). While Tardigrade currently don’t have a similar service it overlaps the idea of decentralised storage. The storage nodes logic would have to change and probably would need to have a different logic on audits and costs. While the current solution direct the income on traffic rather than the amount of storage, in a cold storage scenario the integrity of data is more importan…

Helping customers to migrate may help

@sorendanielson @bre Interesting idea, maybe to launch something similar for Storj DCS? we announce our Cloud to Cloud Migration program—an offer to pay the transfer costs for customers that want to migrate their data from Amazon S3 to Backblaze B2 Cloud Storage

[jammerdan]

@Alexey

Not everyone customer needs SOC2 compliance, especially if they will be forced to pay premium for that.

But if Storj pays less to commercial node operators they don’t have to charge more.
In theory they could charge the same like for the public network but paying less.
So basically it is an incentive for Storj not to use the public Storj DCS as storage.

[MattJE96011]

It literally says these commercial operators will make less from running Storj… which makes sense due to their scale and efficiency… but that means Storj has these nodes that cost this much, and those nodes that cost less… once there’s enough storage available in enough datacenters, we are of no further use to Storj, plain and simple! That’s just business.

I don’t remember where exactly, but I do remember posting about this a while back… about Storj doing exactly this and pushing us all out. Let’s face it… based on where they need to be with their pricing model, larger scale datacenters are the only way to go. Like I’ve also said, why do you think they’ve never actually gotten rid of whales? We are just a stepping stone, plain and simple. And the fact that they put the offer out there for larger operators to become commercial operators is just insulting. “Hey, were phasing ya’ll out, but if you happen to have a facility with this certification by all means!” Which of course we don’t have, and isn’t worth trying to get just for Storj, so that pretty much takes us out of the equation.

[penfold]

@MattJE96011

Small individual SNOs will be a thing of the past far sooner than I ever imagined

Storj said a long time ago they were looking at a mechanism to get some node operators certified to certain standards…
This isn’t new. Like it or not for big business compliance certifications matter. This is a means to achieve that for those businesses.
I have worked at an MSP for the last 4 years and we are seeing a marked increase even in small business seeking information on compliance standards. Heck, just to receive some Cisco gear overseas I had to sign compliance documents. We knew that when payment rates were going to be reduced that average node sizes (or at least total amount shared) would need to increase to compensate. Again, I am seeing no shocks here at all.

[MattJE96011]

Oh I don’t doubt that. Just making the point that our time is quickly coming to an end.

[Alexey]

Why not charge more for more legislation work? What’s benefit doing more and get less profit?

[Alexey]

The potential demand for storage cannot be covered by SOC2-compliance nodes. So there is always will be a demand for a normal supply. It will balance itself.

We cannot turn out all Operators to do a lot of paperwork (and build hardware accordingly) to become a SOC2-compliance, and the power of Storj is that anyone can join.

@MattJE96011

Just making the point that our time is quickly coming to an end.

Yes, we saw these predictions since beginning (2014), and there we are. So, only time (and market) will show.
At the moment I do not see a reason to shutdown a public network in a favor of private/limited/paper secured (which by design is smaller). More like we (SNO) may shift to become a SOC2-compliance if there would be a higher demand.

[jammerdan]

They can charge more of course, but they don’t have to as they are paying less. So even when charging the same like for the ‘worse’ public network Storj will make higher profit when storing pieces on the commercial network. And that’s an incentive to do so.
Even if a customer does not require all those regulatory compliances, it would be beneficial for Storj to store their data on the commercial network even with the lower prices from the public network.

[Alexey]

The public network is not worse, it doesn’t have a specific certification thus cheaper for the customer, but it has better availability, distribution and free space.
So every customer will decide for themselves.

@jammerdan

Even if a customer does not require all those regulatory compliances, it would be beneficial for Storj to store their data on the commercial network even with the lower prices from the public network.

Why do you always think that be a SOC2-compliance is free? It costs a lot, I’m sure the difference is barely enough to cover it.

[MattJE96011]

SOC2 would probably run between 30 to 50K and requires things even large SNOs simply aren’t going to have unless they are literally a legit datacenter already. And simply colocating a server in a certified datacenter isn’t the same thing, not to mention that is pretty cost prohibitive by itself. Basically, if enough datacenters are interested and run Stroj, we’re out. If not then maybe we have a fighting chance… but don’t expect even the whales here to ever become SOC2 compliant. And yes, once there’s enough datacenters running Storj to both cover their demand and be distributed enough, there’s no need for us. Simple economics. And the fact that they are literally advertising that this would cost them less is nothing more than blatantly saying if the commercial operator venture is successful, we’re all shit out of luck. I mean… most people are here hoping Storj grows enough for everybody to at least make something a little more meaningful… or something at all, but datacenters can sell storage so cheap even the whales most likely won’t be able to compete. I don’t blame them, it’s just business. It’s just disappointing.